Soft Policing..., your thoughts Options

[Elliot Carver]

Lo folks,
Just read this story and for me it sums up the stupidity of our pc crazy UK.

Alert as ecstasy girl taken ill
Clubbers are being warned about a dangerous batch of ecstasy after a 16-year-old became seriously ill.
Hampshire police said the girl was found in a life-threatening condition in Eastleigh town centre just after midnight on Saturday.
Officers suspect she had suffered an adverse reaction to an ecstasy tablet taken during a night out with friends.
A 16-year-old boy was arrested in connection with the incident and is being questioned by police.
Acting Insp Andy Proctor said: "The reaction the girl suffered may be as a result of a bad batch of ecstasy and she was admitted to intensive care as a result.
"We would like to take this as an opportunity to highlight the potential dangers of drug use.
"We also urge anyone who is offered ecstasy or any other controlled drug to seriously think twice about accepting them in light of what has happened."

A 16 year old girl clubbing, underage, bought a class A drug and got ill. She was found half dead and had to go to Hospital. The best our police farce can come up with is highlighting the 'potential dangers' of drug use and 'think twice' about taking them. What sort of message does that send out? Yeah there are a few risks and its kinda not good to do them but....
She'll be out of hospital in a few days and this time next week she'll be back popping pills down her local. Police wont even talk to her. Yet I get pulled over, breathalised, full car and person search, record check and a warning for having my back break light out on my car. Makes me sick.

What should have been said was that the girl was under arrest for possesion of a class A drug. She should be charged and convicted of possession and receive the max sentence, 7 years, for the crime. She should also be fined the rough £10,000 it would have cost to treat her. The nightclub should be shut down and buldozed.
What sort of message does that send out? How many people going out this saturday after hearing that a 16 year old got sent down for 7 years for popping one pill and fined 10k would think twice before buying drugs. How many nightclubs would stop admitting underage girls and drug dealers if they knew they could be out of a business on the streets the next day? The dealers would lose their custom. The money would stop rolling in. The supply would build up making it easier to find. The demand would fall and the UK would very quickly become a bad place to make drug money.

Police would be freed up to actually police. Crime rates would fall. The stress of drug OD's on the NHS would fall, saving money. Its that simple. But nooo what does Dictators Blair and Brown do? They use our taxes to supply crack and meth to inmates to satisfy their human rights. Its crazy!

Debate...

Carver

[D@V£]

Now, call me old fashioned, but I think that she should have been left out on the street to suffer in her condition until she recovered.

Then she should have recieved a through beating.

But apparently, this is against human rights or something... I don't like this idea of human rights, it's bit silly if you ask me...

Things are going to change soon hopefully though... I dunno, I get a feeling somethings in the air...

It's probabley also why I'm suddenly type in single sentance paragraphs too...


EDIT: Also, as I'm sure I've said before, Politcal Correctness is just that. Political.

[Linker Split]

is in england the sale of cigarettes under governament's hands?
In Italy yes. they still sell cigarettes, so they take lotta money from us... that's why nothing goes to the right way
The problem is that: it's ok that police puts in jail who uses drugs, maybe there in your country it's a bit too much 7 years for a single pill,but they don't understand that they must talk with ppl who take drugs, in order to avoid the use... they seem to be like robots, that only do they job. that's not good in my opinion.

[D@V£]

Smokings going to be illegal (well... pretty much illegal) here soon, it seems to me the governments focusing too much on "public" crimes, and a lot less on the more serious problems...

[Elliot Carver]

Lo folks,

The problem we have at the moment in the UK is that our jails are full. Full of grannies who havnt paid their council taxes, bums who forgot to pay their tv licences and greenpeace members who break court orders. Becuase we no longer have any room to put our real criminals their getting let off. Peados, muderers and drug lords have all gone free this year after being convicted of their crimes. Even if they do get sent down the sentence they recive is soft ... very soft. The minimum custodial sentence for death by dangerous driving on UK roads is 10 years. Drunk bloke, speeding, mounts the pavement and kills a baby. He got 4 years....
Its a long shot but may be Brown can turn things around? Then again we said the same about Blair 10 years ago and look where that got us !!

Cheers,
Carver

[D@V£]

Frankly, I don't care how bad Brown is, he can't be much worse than Blair.

Hell, Blair makes Maggie look like Saint Mary reborn!

Bring on the 27th I say (it is the 27th isn't it? I can never remeber important dates ).

And bring back beatings. I think we should just let the police get on with their jobs. I mean, why should Criminals have rights? If rights are granted by the state, then why should those who work to destroy it be given it's protection? And whats up with "life sentances" anyway? Who the hell lives for 20-ish years anyway?

[BigglesTrevor]

hmm, well i would have to disagree with you Carver. Theres not much police can really do about drug use. Drug raids are constant -yes, but if people really want to take drugs the police cant stop them. Propaganda (awareness) is the way forward to stop drugs. Prosecuting the nightclub? well there's only so much nightclubs can do, when there ques reaching 300 metres long they cant hand search AND ID everyone. + with our current prison system can we really afford to put all drug users away? i dont think so, and personally i dont think it will help much.

As for rights, how can prisoners not have rights? Most of the people using class A drugs are as a responce to there social cirumstances. People turn to drugs out of desperation, when was the last time you heard of a middle aged middle class drug addict? Stripping there civil rights is hardly fare game, proper monitered social assistance is needed. Lets give them a council house and a proper job. on condition they stop using drugs ofcourse, not just completly cut them from society but include them.

@ Dave, the word 'life sentace' derives from life (as in the taking off), not there jail serve time. (or so dubious law students inform me)

[Elliot Carver]

Just because drugs have become common in our society shouldn't mean we adopt them into it. Everyone my age does drugs to be cool to get sex. Influenced by rap, girls think they are there to service blokes. I know girls who take Rohypnol before drinking. Sad isn't it? No one is prepared to change it. Prison is a nice place. Sentences favor the criminal. Today a 10 year old girl was blamed for her own rape because she was dressed to sexy. The peado will only serve 8 weeks in prison....

Sorry but there is nothing more I can say after reading that. point made!

[D@V£]

The problem is that drugs have become too common in our society. I mean, they're everywhere, aren't they? In pop culture especially. And now, Biggles, you're trying to tell me that there's no way we can stop people taking drugs?

Well, here's an idea, it might sound a bit crazy to a leftist like yourself, so I'll try to make it simple:

1. Make the import, production, sale and consumation of such substances illegal.
2. Any ship/plane found importing drugs will be banned from british ports/airspace.
3. Anyone found in possession of drugs will be fined an amount based on the type of drug and the amount possessed.
4. Anyone found manufacturing drugs will be stripped of the devices used, and will be put in the stocks for a few days.

Well... maybe not the stocks, but then again, it could be a good idea to bring back the stocks...

As for Human Rights, I don't believe in them. It's Madness I tells'ya! Madness!

[BigglesTrevor]

haha, i like the way you presume im left, but i guess you got that from my product of envoirement speech back there.

Anyway, if your being this radical, why the hell not ban rap music which glorifies drug use? why not? because it would make drugs even cooler. You can make the punishment worse but it wont make a difference. It just means the price of drugs will increse, that wont stop people using them, it will just make addicts lives even more miserable.

[D@V£]

I disagree. I just can't justify banning rap music. And, the price of drugs won't increase, because their won't be any drugs!

Obviously, while the punishment should fit the crime, the reward should fit the action, I would institute a cash reward for those that would help stem these henionious anti-citizenary actions!

See, capitalism can work!

[Wittmann]

Targeting underage drug users wont do anything. You put a user away, so what? It does not change the situation. They should be fined yes, perhaps some community service (200 hrs or so) and put into rehab and made to go, perhaps even weekend detention.

Where the focus NEEDS to be and where it NEEDS TO BE HARSH and to the full extent of the law, is targeting drug importers and suppliers. You cant pick off the end users and expect the problem to go away, it wont. People will continue to take drugs, even if they are illegal, even if the sentences are harsh. You need to go tot he source. Stop the importations and arrest and lock away the dealers for life...then your hurting the drug runners. They can always find a wide base for sales and make their money despite sentencing a few users. They are but a drop in an ocean.

[kennedy]

Smokings going to be illegal (well... pretty much illegal) here soon, it seems to me the governments focusing too much on "public" crimes, and a lot less on the more serious problems...

As a police officer myself in England I might like to point out that that isn't quite the case crime rates in the UK have fallen, though unfortunatly us officers still face 20,000 knife threats and 3500 gun threats each year

Bring it on

[Elliot Carver]

Bring it on? ok

As an officer where do you feel the police has gone wrong with its attitude towards the law abiding public? I still cant walk through my local town after dark without being threatened by a group of yobs. Thats with a dispersal order in effect in the area and mounted units patroling. Yet when I drive home after dark almost every time I get pulled over for a routine traffic stop. It gives the impression that the police are out to make a quick buck off me in fines rather than face the gangs who rule the streets. Crime rates have fallen in general but serious crime is on the up.

ref the drugs debate: Yes prison wont stop the hardcore addicts but im aiming my ideas at the casual users. Group of teens out on the raz who get offered a small bag of E for £30. The opertunist users who want to have a good evening who pop a pill to make it 'a good night'. A harsh prison sentence would put them off, if it was enforced. Put it this way. If the punishment for murder was a £80 on the spot fine and a warning the murder rates would go though the roof. Its the same with drugs. If people knew they stood a good chance of getting caught and spending along time in prison the opertunists wouldnt take drugs. ok it wouldnt stop the addicts but the loss on income to the dealers would be massive.

[Wittmann]

We have prison terms in Australia enforced at times for drug use (mainly hard drugs like Heroin or Ice) and it does little to curb even casual usage, so most users end up with large fines, rehab and lengthy community service or weekend detention. If they happen to be carrying alot o drugs on their person at the time though, they are in trouble. Eliminate the majority of drugs or hamper imports and sales, the price shoots through the roof due to a dwindling supply and many 'casual' users wont be able to afford to make it a good night

Another thing is not just random breath tests but drug tests, this is being implemented in Victoria here at the moment.

As for UK police facing so many threats, its unfortunate, but perhaps one of these days the archaic notion that a bobby does not need a gun for defence has passed in this modern world and a sidearm is necessary alongside capsicum sprays and batons, I come from a family with alot of Police officers including both my parents and they think its lunacy to be without a sidearm in case you come across a situation where one would be needed to save your own or another's life.

[BigglesTrevor]

As for UK police facing so many threats, its unfortunate, but perhaps one of these days the archaic notion that a bobby does not need a gun for defence has passed in this modern world and a sidearm is necessary alongside capsicum sprays and batons, I come from a family with alot of Police officers including both my parents and they think its lunacy to be without a sidearm in case you come across a situation where one would be needed to save your own or another's life.

i personally believe sidearms are not needed by UK police. There are special arms units that can mobilize to a 999 call just as fast as a police patrol. I would hate to see the British police become the american eqivilent who put a gun in somones face for speeding on the motorway. Its just not civil and completly unnesicary.

Now perhaps police cars having a secure locked box with a sidearm in would be useful. But as for the averige bobby, in town on a friday night, no thanks. as for police not concentrating on certian jobs, i think alot of it is the media. Alot of people fail to remember there are different types of police, Metropoliton and Traffic. 9/10 people get pulled over for driving offences by traffic police, who are in essence doing there job. Also it is important for metroplition police to extensivly carry out speed checks and routine stops particularly on friday and saturday nights. This is becuase of the large number of drink drivers and general 'boy racers'.

As for police not on streets enough. Well if they, for example, were patrolling that street when you wanted to go out Carver then you would be able to get to the shop without fear. However becuase that street would now be deemed safe in the public eyes many would deem it a waste of police time, and the papers would start complaining about the hit and run incident last week. its a loose loose situation for the police, they just have to issue out there resorces the best they can. I think the real waste of police time is the vast amount of paper work and buorocracy thats now involved. That needs to be sorted out for sure. 4/10 on-duty police officers are out and about, the others are sitting at desks.

[kennedy]

Bring it on? ok

As an officer where do you feel the police has gone wrong with its attitude towards the law abiding public? I still cant walk through my local town after dark without being threatened by a group of yobs. Thats with a dispersal order in effect in the area and mounted units patroling. Yet when I drive home after dark almost every time I get pulled over for a routine traffic stop. It gives the impression that the police are out to make a quick buck off me in fines rather than face the gangs who rule the streets. Crime rates have fallen in general but serious crime is on the up.

ref the drugs debate: Yes prison wont stop the hardcore addicts but im aiming my ideas at the casual users. Group of teens out on the raz who get offered a small bag of E for £30. The opertunist users who want to have a good evening who pop a pill to make it 'a good night'. A harsh prison sentence would put them off, if it was enforced. Put it this way. If the punishment for murder was a £80 on the spot fine and a warning the murder rates would go though the roof. Its the same with drugs. If people knew they stood a good chance of getting caught and spending along time in prison the opertunists wouldnt take drugs. ok it wouldnt stop the addicts but the loss on income to the dealers would be massive.

I'll answer your second question first. The maximum term in prison for possession of a controlled substance can be somewhere along the lines of 6 years. However, casual users cause less of a problem than full time users, because it is full time users to steal etc. to fund their habbit, and it is the suppliers who cause the most trouble of all. Suppliers go down all the time with drugs raids and so on in the early hours, unfortunatly because we don't have a bottomless supply of resources we have to allocate ourselves accordingly, doing the best with what we have to work with, so to speak.

As for your first comment your yobs are handled by regular police officers, whereas your traffic offences are handled by the traffic units, so that doesn't mean that the cops aren't dealing with the yobs because they are pulling you over, because traffic has its own job to you. The flip side would be equally worrying wouldn't it? People complaining that other people are speeding and knocking people down while we spend all our time locking up youths in the streets, as I say it is all about balance.

But chin up if (as I think I am correct in thinking) you line in the UK, you have one of the most efficient and successful police forces in the world, and I would be saying that no matter what I did for a living (I'm a volunteer officers anyway, not full time, so I'm not inclined to be too biased).

[kennedy]

As for UK police facing so many threats, its unfortunate, but perhaps one of these days the archaic notion that a bobby does not need a gun for defence has passed in this modern world and a sidearm is necessary alongside capsicum sprays and batons, I come from a family with alot of Police officers including both my parents and they think its lunacy to be without a sidearm in case you come across a situation where one would be needed to save your own or another's life.

I pray we are never issued with sidearms when out on the streets. Criminals would turn to each other and say "it's not good having a knife anymore, those coppers all have guns now, I don't want to get shot we've all got to get guns to defend ourselves" next thing you know, officer fatality would go through the roof. America has armed officers and looses 40 police officers per year, we loose perhaps one every year or two years, and those numbers aren't proportionally to the difference in populations, they loose more officers per unit of population than we do.

Remember, our body armour isn't bullet proof, not called a "STABBIE" for nothing

[Wittmann]

Police fatalities in Australia are rather low however despite the fact our Police all have sidearms. The Baton and OC spray are generally all you need, and our gun laws are not all that restrictive when it comes to acquiring a rifle or shotgun. But sometimes you need that sidearm. My father has had to draw only once in his career when faced with a sawn off shotgun, luckily no shots were fired.

Proper training and equipment means its there as a weapon of last resort, unlike the Americans, who seem to like going for it first, no questions asked...here if an officer draws his weapon without proper warnings, the correct threat level or proper cause it could cost them a job. Sidearms have saved more officers and innocent peoples lives here than they have taken, its just the way the modern world is, illegal weapons are readily available in major population centres to those who want one. Sidearms in all but South Australia and Victoria have been recently upgraded to semi-automatic also due to the greater amounts of semi-automatics confiscated from criminals, due to the wearing of service revolvers after years of service and the loss of two officers lives years ago to a criminal who outgunned the officers, they were shot attempting to reload their revolvers.

Real criminals dont play by the rules, Im looking at a career in policing myself and I think it would be madness for me to set foot on the streets of Sydney or Melbourne without a sidearm, just incase. Chances are, I may never fire it or even draw it in a real situation, but I have that ability to defend myself or another if the criminal will otherwise take a life or my own.

http://business.nmsu.edu/~dboje/nike/image...ce_blockade.jpg

http://www.clearharmony.net/a_images/2006/...-lawsuit-03.jpg

They dont look all that much more threatening to me

I think its all a matter of training and culture. The US has a violent gun worshipping culture, its reflected in how their Police deal with situations. Training and a different culture and approach to law enforcement can eliminate that 'I have a gun and Im a big man' psyche that can often manifest itself.