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Posted by: D@V£ Nov 6 2008, 14:38

Can I ask, what's the point of this, really?

And, more importantly, what's the point of restricting access to a select group of 14 individuals?

Even more importantly than that, can I ask what's the point of restricted this to a group of 14 individuals, of whom only 10 actually frequently post? (as in, more than 30 posts)

And, even more importantly, how come, one of the 4 that do frequently post, 1 has never released an addon for ArmA at all?



So, yeah. Who chooses these Addon Makers? Because, in my experience at least half the members of the forum have toyed with addon making, and I'm sure more than 14 members have actually performed any serious addon creation (from a quick look at the released addons section, I see wipman, bdfy, Frostman, EMSI, MODUL, AtStWalker, Yac and Linker_Split, 8 members who seem obvious choices and have quite clearly overlooked in favour of members, some of whom have never even posted)

What is seriously expected to be achieved by segregating these "AddOn Makers" from the rest of the community? Whenever people have trouble making addons they ask in the WIP section what the problem is, and it's not like all these guys could just post in there. So what's the point?

Posted by: JdB Nov 6 2008, 15:18

As that first line sums up the rest of your post, I've only quoted this line

My first impression would be that it is means to get more addon-dedicated conversations that aids addonmakers in becoming better at what they do, spread information, possibly connect addonmakers that would otherwise be working oblivious to one another, all of this without the usual "when will it be released", flamewars in which e-penises are measured to determine which country/branch is more elite, or off-topic chatter in between that happens to every addon/mod's topic at some point. When faced with a problem, you would like to be presented with an answer that is likely to solve your problem, or to at least enable you to narrow down the possible cause, not with a wild guess (no offense to those trying to help). There are some more reasons that have slipped my mind atm, but cooperation and creating a more direct dialogue would be the most immediate ones.

As for not everyone being invited (which is the only way of gaining access), Deadeye is not God, so he cannot create the perfect world with a single snap of his finger.

Whether you have already released an addon doesn't matter that much, as that would exclude many OFP-proven modmakers, since mods usually take longer to develop than addons. What does matter is the quality of your work/noticeable improvement, the dedication you put into it etc. Having dabbled in the art of addonmaking does not make you an addonmaker, just as having been to a demonstration day at an army base does not make you a soldier.

I mentioned this idea a while back, and they seem to have picked up on it. I had some concerns about whether it would actually work, but that's the case with any initiative.

I personally don't like the specific color that the "Addon Maker" groupname has, it should be darker green so that it contrasts better with the shades of brown of the forum/site, so that it's easier to read.

Posted by: D@V£ Nov 6 2008, 17:38

While I do agree with some of the points, this is hardly a real solution. If anything, this is just adding more work for the administration which really doesn't need to be done. Because someone is going to have to decide if people are "proper" addon makers or just people who are dabbling in the subject. Which just seems like blatant elitism to me.

There's already at least one sub forum in every language section that fills the role of this new section, any need for private cooperation can use the PM system, it just seems to me that this sub forum is nothing more than a private clubhouse for those members who consider themselves too "professional" (read; Stuck-up) to work with the rest of the community.

Posted by: Rellikki Nov 6 2008, 18:24

I have to agree with Dave. If the addon makers want to co-operate with each other, they could just do it through private messages, MSN or whatever. And all the discussion and questions so far over there could have been done in the public section of the forums for quicker answers and more opinions... There's really nothing "secret" in the discussions so far to be posted on a private section.
And if I wanted to present my work in private, I wouldn't even do it over there, because it would be kinda insecure. You know what people are like, it would just spread all over the community...

Posted by: JynX Nov 6 2008, 18:47

While I'm not fussed about it being there I don't really see the point. Mostly agreeing with the points Reli made, though I'd wait and see. If some thing good comes out of it sure why not keep it, if it just sits there not being used and people out side said group are not happy with it then it may as well go.
Frankly from a creative/artsy-farsty way of thinking, a close group is closed to new ideas and will eventually just become stagnant with the same ways of doing things and to be honest I can't see that working, if it were an open group for addon discussion then why not...'ang on, we have several of those as mentioned...

Anyway that's just my two pence, obviously some of the higher-ups think it's worth while so I'm not going tae argue against it.

Posted by: STALKERGB Nov 6 2008, 23:30

I have to agree with both Rellikki and Dave, having a select group of people who talk amongst themselves sharing their knowledge will stagnate as Jynx said. Creating a higher and Lower tier of Addon makers seems a bit wierd to me...

Posted by: JdB Nov 6 2008, 23:40

Open group does not always mean that the more people that participate, the better the subject is handled. I know/have known (in OFP) addonmakers that frown upon nobodys giving them advice on addonmaking (not that they do not appreciate people giving their opinions on realism (i.e. ex-military people) and getting things right (reenactors, collectors etc), but people with zero addonmaking skills giving advice on how to make addons/fix problems in the process are not always taken as seriously).

Personally when I am talking to fellow addonmakers, I talk to them in a different way, more technical, and I tend to explain them in more detail, and tell them more about what I'm/we as a mod are working on than when I am talking to most of you, because you have to take into consideration your audience. I often tend to discuss new ideas more in-depth with them, as they can provide fairly accurate input themselves, leading to a better concept (although I must admit that some of the most innovative things come/have come from outsiders, although they are sometimes hard to realize within the limitations of the engine, but there is still enough room for this in the public section). You can think "out-of-the-box" better with them, as you don't waste time on things that you know will not be possible, leaving more time to focus on things that do stand a chance of amazing the people who download my/our stuff. If this translates into this subforum, then the initiative will have been successful.

If this makes no sense at all, I blame the alcohol

Posted by: Sheildsy Nov 7 2008, 02:11

As a novice addon maker i have found it more than easy to get in contact with other addon makers (Linker Split, ADF Team, Fabiontronc) without the need for a proper forums.
We as ArmA players and addon makers are proud of our uniqu community, lets not fence off others knowledge, if they wish to share it in public, they will, if they dont wish to share it to public, then contact specific people to them, dont leave others out of the loop.

Posted by: Deadeye Nov 7 2008, 18:44

Well JdB did pretty much point out the main points why we have decided to create this section so I won't echo it again for now (as I have to leave again soon).

The whole project was started just a few days ago, do you really expect to have the group filled up within such a short timeframe? Our goal is to invite as many addon artists as possible, but after all we are just human beeings with limited time.



The artists are mainly "chosen" by the site team however artists who are already a part of the group are free to propose their personal candidates which will then be most likely invited aswell.
And yes me might have for now "overlooked" many artists (for example the ones you mentioned), but that's not because we don't want them to join....it's because there are litterally dozens of persons that should and will be invited and the section is only 3 days old. You should also not forget, that we do not just add those members to the group...we do invite them and if they don't want to...no problem at all.

Also the decision whom of the 1000 addon author deserves to be a part of this special group is indeed a very though one and might have to be adjusted in the future. Rome also wasn't build in one day. For now we do follow the policy of inviting the most well known artists and those folks from which WE think that they can provide usefull information and help for the rest of the group (That's why there are some "unknown" lads in the group already).

It is all going to be very tricky and we might get confronted by some starting problems, but we are confident that we can do it ! Yes we can !


It is far easier to just post on a message board than using PM's. Also once you have solved lets say a problem it will most likely end up in the MSN/PM history where nobody else can access it.
However we might find a solution to also display some of the content that has been discussed to the public. We will see.

This whole project might also go down the well, it is something innovative that can possibly generate more stuff for the community, but in the end it's up to the addon makers to either use it or not.

We (the site administration and team) do believe in it and that's why the section will stay !

Last but not least let me state that neary every reply we received from the artists was very positive.

Thanks for all you comments nevertheless, we will for sure keep your points in mind for future modifcations.

Posted by: D@V£ Nov 8 2008, 01:44

So the solution is to put it somewhere where only people you want can access it? And more importantly, who decides what should or shouldn't be let out of section?

Look, I'm going to admit, you have a very good point with all of this, but that's really not what myself or anyone else here is complaining about.

So I'm just going to address my concern with this section in a short list. Well... not so much a list, as two points. But they're actually extremely good points. I have a lot of other concerns, but they're really only just these two in different terms.

1. The area is restricted.
This is obviously the major one. The idea of adding every addon maker to the group is ridiculous, especially considering that probably at least a quarter of the active members will have at least once tried out O2L and maybe made a few private reskins or simple copy/paste jobs. Then there's mission makers. I'd wager at least 9 of ten members have messed around in the mission editor. BIS's EULA strictly forbids nearly everyone in this forum from being a truly professional addon maker, then it means someone has to decide if someone deserves access.. Which really just seems like a waste of administrative time to me, and stinks of elitism. Then you've effectively split the addon making community into an upper and lower class, one of which has access to better support, the other is stuck whenever they come across a problem. If you invite that entire quarter, then you might as well just let everyone in. So what's the point of it being restricted?

The main point for restricting it seems to be the belief that everyone except this elite are idiots who couldn't produce anything, let alone a valid opinion. I'm not even going to bother arguing with this, because it's clearly that these individuals consider myself and anyone else who sees the obvious faults with this view to be idiots and would consider our argument against it invalid.


2. The area is redundant
We already have a section for addon creation questions. The only real difference between the old section and this new one is that the new one is restricted. I'm not going to go on about that again, but if you unrestricted it, then it's identical to the previous section.

Posted by: Sheildsy Nov 9 2008, 13:30

in addition to daves reply, who is it to say and define what an addon maker really is?
I have several works hosted on here, dating from my first ever crappy units to my latest and quite proud of weapons.
Several others have almost been denied from the addon makers section. we have an addon makers section open to only select addon makers?

Posted by: JdB Nov 9 2008, 13:54

Such as? When you say that they were denied would imply that they applied themselves (which is not how it works), or that someone else suggested them, and his/their work was found either inadequate or suspicious (possibly stolen, pirated from other games etc, the ratio of which has increased since ArmA with some known individuals creating dozens of duplicate accounts, so I can imagine that they're being cautious about who to let in).

Having an account on these forums already helps, since it's easier to contact someone without having to look up an e-mail address or account on another forum.

A good indication of who has a chance to get invited is imo the site itself, if you appear in the news often/significantly enough with your own/your team's work, you stand a good chance of being invited.

Posted by: Sheildsy Nov 9 2008, 14:50

Iam not saying i wish to be invited, i just think if a talented addon maker who is new to the community would like to emmerse themselves in an addon making specific forum, would not be able to have the chance to have access to such a communication due to the fact they havnt met a certain criteria of not releasing enough addons or appear in the news often/significantly enough.
I beleve it is a great idea to have a section dedicated to the production and sharing of ideas, but it would be greater if all could access it, even with posting restrictions and/or heavy moderation. The end result is more people becoming interested in developing new ideas for addons, leading to new innovative addons. Rather than a select few posting more or less wips and screens of up coming work saying 'yeah, check this out'.
It is not my decision, iam just voicing my opinon, i have no problem at all with how this site is run, and would like to personally thank all the admins and mods for keeping this forum alive, i jst feel differently about this particular section, and i beleve a few other long time members of the community would agree.

Posted by: Wittmann Nov 9 2008, 15:04

The suggestion of having the section 'read only' for the general population is being tossed up. Basically anyone could access it however only the section members could post there; the trade off being that everyone could view the content inside.

If this comes into effect everyone will be informed.

Feel free to continue discussion; as this section is in its infancy it will take a wee while for any implementation of new proctocol's or ideas as we find what works and what does not. Community ideas and criticism are being considered, you are not being ignored.

Posted by: Sheildsy Nov 10 2008, 02:52

A read only section would be greatly appriciated by me, and hopfully other members of the community.
Thanks Witty

Posted by: D@V£ Nov 10 2008, 03:01

Read only would be a good idea. Would help with most of the complaints.

Also, maybe if there was a thread where us plain old dabblers could present questions to these guys and maybe set up some better clarification of what's needed to be a member of this group. (I'd consider having released an addon for ArmA a requirement, and perhaps some sort of counter for how many problems they've solved correctly in the plain addons section?)



And finally, you should change the icon so it says "Engineer" instead of "Artist"... this idea already stinks of people who wear turtle neck sweaters and berets enough in it's present condition!

Posted by: Wittmann Nov 10 2008, 03:08

Top idea Welshman, I'll raise it with the group!

Posted by: Wittmann Nov 11 2008, 09:27

So far the idea of a read only access for general members has been greeted with enthusiasm by the members of the addon makers section.
I trial forum demonstrating a potential layout for 'ask an addon maker' based on D@V£'s idea has been set up by Deadeye.

Will update with further details as we iron them out.

Posted by: UKGBlazero Nov 11 2008, 21:20

nice one

Posted by: D@V£ Nov 12 2008, 15:25

Seems someone forgot to update the texturing section. Still can't view posts there.

Posted by: Deadeye Nov 12 2008, 15:28

Fixed, also the Ask an addon artist section will be released soon too

Posted by: pMASTER Nov 12 2008, 16:31

That's my point.

But folks I ask you to understand that we felt a need to do something new because of the results of http://forum.armedassault.info/index.php?showtopic=2725&st=0&gopid=53875&#entry53875.

Unfortunately only a few people bothered to give us a feedback, the half of which even being team members.

The issue at hand is related to the close outcome of the last question: Is the value of addon makers and modders appreciated enough in these forums? The half of all participants said yes, the other half said no. We were trying to find a way that pleases both sides and of course this is a steady path to go and nothing that is carved in stone for eternity.

Posted by: JdB Nov 12 2008, 17:41

*Feels a need to add to the drama*

And ex-team members

Posted by: pMASTER Nov 13 2008, 00:14

You're mean.

Posted by: Wittmann Nov 13 2008, 03:34

Stay on topic JdB and pMaster.

Posted by: bdfy Nov 15 2008, 22:59

it's not that i care a lot about it,ut imho it's flat nonsense atm
what is it now ? Some kind of very badly organized 'spam' filter - with admin confirmation for every poster ? it's standart to have restricted forums for new members (with less then N posts), but it's standart forum feature (maybe not for this forum engine though). it's standart to have private forum for every mod team - but it's defenatelly not the case. this forum lacks visitors a lot even without such 'features'.

Posted by: d@nte Nov 16 2008, 12:33

well, personally i don't like the idea. this is just a new wall between the members.

I do not understand why it is so important to put people in groups

"artist", lol; this is just a little bit pompous

Posted by: Deadeye Nov 16 2008, 17:13

It would be very kind if you could tell us in which way this is badly organized?Then we can learn from our mistakes and improve. And nope no admin confomration for every poster...only the addon makers (are also open for format suggestions..that includes the group name) in the group can post whatever they want.

Give it some time..as I said before..Rome wasn't build in one day either

But thanks for the feedback bdfy and D@nte

Also the public "Ask an addon artist" section will be published soon !

Posted by: pMASTER Dec 11 2008, 14:40

The question is what it was needed for. No threads were started or questions asked during the last three weeks. I'll always be happy to pick up new ideas and constructive criticism, but it's somewhat lame if you don't receive any feedback by the community if you're willing to follow her ideas.

Posted by: JdB Dec 11 2008, 16:29

It has always been like that. The happy people don't say anything, while only the unhappy (or sometimes idiotic) people complain excessively, leading to the misguided impression that something is not working out at all. I've experienced this both in modmaking and while working on this site. It's pretty much the way the internet (and society for that matter) works. You don't hear opposition politicians mentioning government plans that worked really well either, it's not something they can work with (or need to for that matter).