Political Discussion Thread, Discuss World Politics and Related Topics In Here Options

[JdB]

Be careful what you say, the Crusades were wars, too.

Also students at an officers-academy do nothing else all day than study the past

[Wittmann]

And the tactics of today, at least, they do in Australia.
This is not a history thread however, unless its entirely military related.

[Elliot Carver]

ok, to keep the crusade subject on topic ...

do you think todays fighting in the middle east and the destabilization of surrounding countries could be classed as a crusade? The western world Vs The Muslim faith. what do you think?

[Blackbuck]

I'd prefer to think of it as America sticking it's nose into every tyrant or dictators country they know of, try to make them more pro US, fail miserably, then drag in other countries, then leave the country in a worse state than it was in before.

[Avalla'ch]

so, the americans are crusaders that were succesfull at first crusades....bu later they will be kicked, demoralized and defeated...right ?

[Blackbuck]

They're not crusaders just arrogant and self proclaimed rulers of the world.

[Avalla'ch]

But its almost the same
Crusaders invaded M.East beacuse of christianity - > US invaded M.East beacuse of..umm...oil ? yeah.
Crusaders were succesfull, well ...at first crusade( there were more crusades)--> US was succesfull too...at the beginning..

A lot of crusades have been defeated and crusaders went home--->A lot of US soldiers were killed but idiot named G.W. B. wanted them to stay there....

Oh and for US-politics-in-Iraq-haters, check this :
http://tales-of-iraq-war.blogspot.com/

Those pictures are funny as hell

[D@V£]

Wasn't one of the main objects of the crusade to take the resources in the Middle East though? I remeber someone said something along the lines of "Hey Guys God put riches in the lands of Godless men to make us go over there and spread God's word. I'm sure of it. We should take the riches as our reward for spreading God's word."

But I could be thinking of the Spanish Conquering them Americas...

[BigglesTrevor]

your right D@ve, the east was much much richer at the time, particular cities like Constantinople and Alexandra. Not in the Holy Land but all trade routes to the Mediteranian from China and India (no cape of good hope sailing yet) went directly through it.

[pMASTER]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle2947734.ece

Now tell me that you still don't understand my personal crusade against European political correctness accepting stuff like this without batting an eye. Why can't I be as much offended as they are?

[Valhalian]

A lot of crusades have been defeated and crusaders went home--->A lot of US soldiers were killed but idiot named G.W. B. wanted them to stay there.... yammer.gif

I know (at least from what ive read from you all so far) that youll probably wont agree with me on this one, but: Leaving the place in the state at which it currently is, is in my opinion worse than going there in the first place. Iraq must be stabilized before you can leave to its own fate. By stabilizing I mean raising a strong, capable army and police force with a good training, training new civil servants to help govern the country and helping to rebuild the industry. And only the US is able to do that atm. What do you think would happen, if they packed their bags jumped in their C-5s and flew off tomorrow morning?

[JdB]

What do you think would happen, if they packed their bags jumped in their C-5s and flew off tomorrow morning?

Insurgency, civil war, inter-tribal crimes against humanity/warcrimes. Oh no wait, that's already happening right now...

Whether it's the US armed forces getting attacked or some sort of Iraqi army (which is something fantasized by the US, the 3 different main ethnic groups don't want to form anything together, or want to have anything to do with eachother, besides preferably killing the other groups), there will be "acts of terrorism" in Iraq for many decades to come unless the "democratically elected" government falls and one tribe manages to overpower the other two like Saddam did. After that we will just be back to the situation pre-2003, with the slight difference that many thousands of foreign troops will have died in a country that didn't want them there.

[Valhalian]

All they need is some time to live along each other in relative peace while governing the country themselves. But that can only be done after what ive wrote earlier. Time is what makes neighbors of enemies and allies of neighbors.

[D@V£]

I know (at least from what ive read from you all so far) that youll probably wont agree with me on this one, but: Leaving the place in the state at which it currently is, is in my opinion worse than going there in the first place. Iraq must be stabilized before you can leave to its own fate. By stabilizing I mean raising a strong, capable army and police force with a good training, training new civil servants to help govern the country and helping to rebuild the industry. And only the US is able to do that atm. What do you think would happen, if they packed their bags jumped in their C-5s and flew off tomorrow morning?

I have to agree with every point you've said there, a lot of people on these boards are mad post modernists who think it's wrong to help people!
If everyone pulls out right now then you're not going to see a decrease in bloodshed. You're going to see a major increase in bloodshed. The only real option is to stay in Iraq. If we leave, people will die. It's not a matter open for debate, it's not a statistic, it's a fact. If we pull out a second before there's a strong democratic government in place with a good degree of control over the armed and police forces either there's going to be a civil war, or another nation is simpley going to move in. How can you compare the life of a few hundread of our soldiers to the lives of the millions of innocent people who have died under saddam, and the potential millions of innocents who are going to die if we pull out. Don't give me any of your bullshit about Oil or the like. If we pull out these people will suffer.

Of course, clearly this is falling on deaf ears. You've all chosen to be the selfish europeans and americans of the past who aren't willing to accept sacrifice. You'd rather just sit at home with your TVs complaining about how the wars costing your precious tax money which could be better spent on improving your already hedonistic lifestyle. There were the exact same people who said we should simpley just let Hitler invade Austria, afterall, there were plenty of Germans there. We shouldn't step in when Germany's raising a huge army. We shouldn't step in when they invade Czechslovakia.... etc.

Choose to ignore what I'm saying if you want. It doesn't change the facts here.

[BigglesTrevor]

absolutly ridiculous. I tell you now if she is lashed, this country will be in absolute uprour. This could lead to a major political fallout with the Sudan. Im sorry to have to say this, and im not a racist, but some of these islamic countries need to grow up and get a clue that different cultures and religions exist.

[JdB]

absolutly ridiculous. I tell you now if she is lashed, this country will be in absolute uprour. This could lead to a major political fallout with the Sudan. Im sorry to have to say this, and im not a racist, but some of these islamic countries need to grow up and get a clue that different cultures and religions exist.

Britain will huff, puff and then send a letter of disapproval, or a security council resolution that gets blocked by China and Russia because they block everything. In the end, nothing will happen. I say evacuate the foreigners and use a tactical-nuke to show what happens to those that think they can impose their beliefs upon others. We're at war with islamic (extremists) already anyway, so pissing them off by sending a few thousand of their followers to the virgins really doesn't change much.

Kind of hard when you live in a medieval culture where certain individuals claiming to be experts on your religion says that there are no other religions than your own

It was an international school if I understood the news report right. This goes to show that the tolerance of islam towards other religions has been perverted by those same people, with no other intent than to grab power through the excuse of religion.

[pMASTER]

What outcome of the current Afghanistan war do you predict?
I've recently read something about the study of a think tank stating that at least a doubling of ISAF forces would be necessary to steal the insurgency's thunder - and no NATO nation cannot even afford to deploy some more choppers to this country so the alliance will soon have to rent civilian helicopters to maintain supply of ground troops in Afghanistan.

[JdB]

What outcome of the current Afghanistan war do you predict?
I've recently read something about the study of a think tank stating that at least a doubling of ISAF forces would be necessary to steal the insurgency's thunder - and no NATO nation cannot even afford to deploy some more choppers to this country so the alliance will soon have to rent civilian helicopters to maintain supply of ground troops in Afghanistan.

Will drag on for years to come, then we cannot be bothered (probably through political change), and we pull out "no matter what". As I have said earlier, when the guys coming back from Afghanistan don't even see the point of them being there, and that the current policy doesn't work at all, something has to be wrong.

NATO has no real power when it has to beg it's memberstates to send some troops to actually exist as an organisation.

An IED costs $10, any APC costs over $500.000 at least (the Dutch Army just purchased 10 new Bushmasters to replace vehicles lost in Afghanistan due to IED's, 10 vehicles costing €7.800.000, the IED's that knocked out the APC's being replaced cost far less than $500). This is a war we simply cannot win through force of arms or persistance.

Our trooplevel is so unstable that even the regular infantry units being sent lack proper training to the level of that pre-2006 (when they were deployed to Afghanistan). The number of squadrons in the special operations corps was recently increased from 3 to 4, however we simply have no one to fill them up with, or even to keep up the numbers of the other 3, and they're even getting a substantial increase in pay in the hope that they will stay on.

Taliban trying to ambush our Commandos September last year
CNN report from Camp Hadrian, small outpost used to survey the valley
Dutch Army video of fighting in Chora pt1
Dutch Army video of fighting in Chora pt2
US report on the battle for Chora pt1
US report on the battle for Chora pt2
Patrol comes under fire, small amount of force used
Shooting range of Camp Hadrian, shows ANA troops practicing with Dutch weapons
Aftermath of "Spin Gahr", including locals warning of IEDs and prolonged firefights just 3 days after the end of this "very successful operation"

The reason why Hornet joins the Danish army

The Canadian armed forces also seem to have alot of high quality videos online, like this one. Does show their North American side a bit though imo, with all the screaming at eachother, I haven't seen that at all in Dutch videos.

[Hornet85]

Not realy this is wy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FtSEq27cfU

[pMASTER]

An IED costs $10, any APC costs over $500.000 at least (the Dutch Army just purchased 10 new Bushmasters to replace vehicles lost in Afghanistan due to IED's, 10 vehicles costing €7.800.000, the IED's that knocked out the APC's being replaced cost far less than $500). This is a war we simply cannot win through force of arms or persistance.

I wished we actually would replace our losses in a sufficient way. Four FENNEKs, eleven DINGOs, seven uparmoured WOLFs, a FUCHs and a bus were lost in IED attacks or suicidide bombings, but instead of replacements for those they decided to acquire the new PUMA IFV which cannot be deployed to Afghanistan because of missing airlifting capabilities.